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Nord Corea [Discussione Ufficiale]

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Guest intruder
Il primo "lotto" di F-22 è sbarcato ad Okinawa come risposta alle minacce Nordkoreane, inoltre il grado di allerta delle truppe di Seul è aumentato.

 

F-22 Giappone

 

Tranquilli, finisce in una bolla di sapone.

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Tranquilli, finisce in una bolla di sapone.

Grazie della rassicurazione Intruder :rolleyes: , però la Korea ormai è allo stremo, non l' appoggia più nessuno (anche la Cina è stufa), e più è isolata e più tira fuori gli artigli :thumbdown:

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Grazie della rassicurazione Intruder :rolleyes: , però la Korea ormai è allo stremo, non l' appoggia più nessuno (anche la Cina è stufa), e più è isolata e più tira fuori gli artigli :thumbdown:

E più si scava la fossa...

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Il braccio di ferro continua e la Corea del Nord non vuole mollare.

 

Dopo l'inasprimento delle sanzioni da parte dell'Onu

Nord Corea: «Blocco atto di guerra. Useremo il plutonio a fini militari»

Il regimendi Pyongyang: «Azioni militari in caso di isolamento»

 

PYONGYANG - La Corea del Nord minaccia. Dopo l'inasprimento delle sanzioni economiche deciso venerdì dall'Onu, con il beneplacito di Cina e Russia, il regime di Pyongyang ha chiarito che intraprenderà azioni militari se «gli Stati Uniti e i loro alleati cercheranno di isolarla». Lo rende noto l'agenzia nordcoreana Kcna.

 

BLOCCO ATTO DI GUERRA - La Corea del Nord torna così ad alzare la posta nella sfida con la comunità internazionale e annuncia di voler dedicare al programma militare nucleare tutto il plutonio ottenuto dalle barre di uranio esausto. Proprio poche ore prima il Consiglio di sicurezza delle Nazioni Unite ha deciso all'unanimità l'inasprimento delle sanzioni che prevede l'ispezione delle navi sospettate di portare in Corea del Nord materiale proibito dall'embargo e utile per i programma militare atomico e missilistico.

Edited by Hicks

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Guest intruder

June 21, 2009: North Korean dictator Kim Jong Il is apparently dying. Thus the hurried public announcement that his youngest son, 26 year old Kim Jong Un would succeed his father. Now the media up north is mentioning Kim Jong Un a lot, and praising him. This prepares the people for their new object of worship. Meanwhile, the true successor to Kim Jong Il is the National Defense Commission (NDC), which Kim Jong Un only recently became a part of (first only as a junior staff member). The NDC consists of the major defense, security and political officials, and is mostly concerned about their personal welfare, and that of their families. The country has been collapsing about them for more than a decade, and the NDC cannot agree on what to do about this. The North Koreans are still trying to extort enough economic aid, and cash, from their neighbors and the United States, to keep the dictatorship up north going. That plan is not working, and there doesn't appear to be a Plan B (other than defecting to China).

Although North Korea is already threatening to use its newly developed nuclear weapons, it takes several years to do the engineering work required to obtain a reliable and compact weapon that can be dropped from an aircraft. It takes somewhat longer to make such warheads smaller and more rugged so that they can be used on a ballistic missile. So the two North Korean nuclear weapons tests are simply indicators of where the North Koreans are on the road to having nukes they can use. Moreover, further analysis of the recent test indicates that it was a very small (under 5 kilotons) yield nuke. They may have been because the North Koreans don't have a lot of nuclear material, and used the minimum amount for their test bomb. The first North Korean test, three years ago, was also on the small size, and was considered, after analysis of the gas and particles that escaped into the atmosphere, to be only partially successful.

 

Although North Korea has been threatening military retaliation, there has been no movement of troops in the north, or anything to indicate preparations for major military operations. This is understandable, as nearly two decades of economic decline have left the military a hollow shell. For over a decade, there has been little, or no, new equipment and no money or fuel for much training. Troops spend most of their time growing their own food or working in factories (or "rented out" to industrial organizations or farms.) The only recent military activity has been on the east coast, where the nuclear test and missile launchings took place, and on the west coast, where coast guard forces have been more active, apparently in preparation for encounters with South Korean patrol ships, over disputed water boundaries. This has led to skirmishes (and casualties) in the past. South Korea has responded to this threat by sending more sailors and marines to the coastal areas just south of the border.

 

Google Earth, and similar services, have inadvertently provided detailed photos of North Korean labor camps (usually as adjuncts to large industrial sites, as the prisoners are used as slave labor) and the luxurious compounds of the communist elite (the swimming pools and gardens make it pretty clear who lives in these suburban, gated and well guarded, enclaves.)

 

The UN World Food Program has failed in its effort to raise half a billion dollars for food aid to North Korea over the next year. Nearly five million North Koreans depend on this food aid to get by, but so far, the UN has been able to raise only about fifteen percent of the money needed. The main problem is North Korean refusal to allow the UN to see where the food is going, and growing evidence that much of the food aid is diverted to the military, or exported to China (or sold on local markets) to raise cash for the government. The private markets have been one of the few bright spots in the North Korean economy, and were allowed only because the government wanted to gain more control over the growing black market. But the private markets provided a convenient outlet for foreign food aid to be sold.

 

In retaliation for the North Korean nuclear tests, the Japanese are hitting back with crackdowns on the shipment of luxury goods to North Korea (which became illegal after the first North Korean nuke went off in 2006). The Japanese are also investigating and prosecuting those who have assisted in the North Korea smuggling and theft (of foreign aid) operations. The U.S. is also making it more difficult for the North Koreans to use the international banking system. American satellites and warships are following North Korea cargo ships, and apparently plan to inspect these ships for carrying weapons or military technology to export customers (like Iran and Myanmar). North Korea says stopping and searching any of their ships would be an act of war. But that would be an enormous gamble by the leadership up north. Many generals are unsure if North Korean troops could be depended on if an attack on South Korea were ordered. There's also the risk that a war would find North Korea without help from its traditional allies China and Russia. Lacking that assistance, North Korea would surely lose a war (which might be a very short one). Much depends on just how delusional the North Korean leadership is. Their reality is pretty grim, but North Korean propaganda still portrays the north as the worker's paradise, with the rest of the world worse off and jealous of mighty North Korea.

 

In South Korea, many who had backed the "Sunshine Policy" (being nice to North Korea, in an effort to establish better relations), now believe that the south was deceived. Apparently the north never stopped developing nuclear weapons, even though it long received generous South Korea and American economic aid in return for halting work on nukes.

 

The north needs all the foreign aid it can get. Last year, legitimate exports (mainly to China) amounted to only $1.5 billion. As much, if not more, foreign currency (to buy essentials, especially goodies to keep the million or so officials and security personnel happy) was obtained via weapons and military technology exports. Cutting this is what the new UN sanctions are all about, and the North Koreans threaten war if this lifeline is cut.

 

An increasing number of Communist Party officials are defecting to China. The usual reason is imminent arrest for corruption. Such officials are usually senior enough to bully, and/or bribe their way past border guards. Once in China, they cooperate with Chinese intelligence, and then go into business with the wealth they have stashed in China. The Chinese see this as a way of recruiting many capable, if corrupt, North Korean officials, who can be used, when North Korea collapses, to deal with the flood of refugees, and possible Chinese occupation of some, or all, of North Korea.

 

June 20, 2009: North Korean heir apparent Kim Jong Un has been promoted to "acting chief" in the National Defense Commission (which actually runs the country, as much as anyone actually does.) The new title means that Kim Jong Un becomes head of the commission if anything happens to the army general that currently holds the post.

 

June 12, 2009: The UN imposed new sanctions (Resolution 1874) on North Korea (with neither China nor Russia willing to veto them). The new rules authorize stopping North Korea ships and seizing weapons (which North Korea is now banned from exporting or importing). The U.S. says it may use these new rules, and North Korea promptly responded that if ships did act, North Korea would declare war. The UN declaration did not authorize the use of force.

 

June 9, 2009: Two American TV reporters, who were seized (apparently on the Chinese side of the North Korean border) three months ago, were put on trial (for espionage and similar fantasies) and sentenced to 12 years in a work (slave labor) camp. The women are actually being held in an apartment in one of the housing compounds used by senior government officials. The North Koreans plan to trade the two women for something useful, eventually.

 

North Korea has warned ships, up to 266 kilometers from the northeast coast, to stay away until further notice, because of upcoming missile tests. North Korea appears to be preparing to launch two more long range missiles.

 

May 29, 2009: North Korea fired another short range (130 kilometers) missile off its east coast.

 

May 27, 2009: In response to the North Korea nuclear test, South Korea and the United States have agreed to implement the Proliferation Security Initiative (PSI), where you use your warships to search for illegal weapons shipments and seize them. North Korea promptly declared that any application of PSI to them would be considered an act of war, and North Korean forces would attack. At the very least, that would mean hundreds, if not thousands, of shells and rockets fired at Seoul, South Korea's largest city (which is just south of the North Korean border.)

 

May 26, 2009: North Korea fired three more short range (130 kilometers) missiles off its east coast.

 

May 25, 2009: North Korea fired two short range (130 kilometers) missiles off its east coast. Yesterday, North Korea apparently tested another nuclear weapon.

 

http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/korea/articles/20090621.aspx

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Guest iscandar

Corea Nord: lanciati altri due missili a corto raggio

02 Luglio 2009 11:38 ESTERI

 

SEUL - Nuova provocazione della Corea del Nord. Secondo l'agenzia sudcoreana Yonhap, che cita il portavoce del ministero della Difesa di Seul, Pyongyang avrebbe testato altri due missili che dalle prime informazione sembrano essere a corto raggio. (Agr)

 

Lo riporta l’agenzia sudcoreana Yonhap

La sfida di Pyongyang:

nuovi lanci di missili a corto raggio

La Corea del Nord sarebbe pronta ad effettuare, il 4 luglio, in corrispondenza della festa dell'Indipendenza americana, una raffica di test di missili balistici

SEUL - La Corea del Nord ha proceduto al lancio test di due missili a corto raggio dalla costa orientale, secondo quanto riferito da responsabili militari sudcoreani e riportato dall’agenzia stampa sudcoreana Yonhap. Il primo vettore è stato «fatto esplodere alle 17.20 locali (10.20 in Italia, ndr) e un altro alle 18.00 da Sinsang-ni», base sulla costa orientale vicino alla città di Wonsan.

 

ALTRI TEST IN PROGRAMMA - Intanto il quotidiano sudcoreano JoongAng, citando fonti dell'intelligence sudcoreana preannuncia che la Corea del Nord sarebbe pronta ad effettuare nei prossimi giorni, probabilmente intorno al quattro di questo mese, in corrispondenza della festa dell'Indipendenza americana, una raffica di test di missili balistici. I missili a corto di tipo Scud e a medio raggio Rodong verrebbero lanciati da due diversi siti sulla costa orientale. Il mese scorso, Pyongyang aveva bandito la navigazione al largo della costa orientale fino al dieci luglio per esercitazioni militari.

Edited by iscandar

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Guest iscandar

Qualcuno lo definisce un dramma, potrebbe anche esserlo:

 

si apre così un'incognita sul futuro del paese perché non c'è un erede designato

Nordcorea, Kim Jong Il ha un cancro

Per una tv sud-coreana avrebbe un tumore al pancreas

NOTIZIE CORRELATE

kim.jpg

Una recente immagine di Kim Jong Il (Afp)

MILANO- Magro. Con il volto tirato. Invecchiato e con meno capelli. Kim Jong Il, leader nord-coreano, era apparso così all'anniversario del padre. E la ragione è semplice: secondo una televisione sud-coreana, Ytn, il «caro leader» avrebbe un cancro al pancreas. La notizia, mai confermata dal governo di Seoul, troverebbe origine dall'intelligence sud-coreana e cinese.

 

LA DIAGNOSI- La salute del leader è uno dei segreti più protetti del Paese. Circa un anno fa si pensa che Kim, 67 anni, abbia avuto un ictus. Ed è stata proprio in quell'occasione che i medici gli avrebbero diagnosticato il tumore e, sempre secondo l'emittente, che cita fonti sanitarie di Pechino, non gli avrebbero dato più di cinque anni di vita. Anche con un'operazione.

 

IL FUTURO- Le notizie sullo stato di salute del caro leader rilanciano le congetture sulla sua successione considerato che se Kim Jong Il dovesse morire senza nominare un successore, si aprirebbe una stagione di profonda incertezza politica per il futuro del Paese. Al momento l'erede designato sarebbe, secondo fonti dell'intelligence sud-coreana, il figlio minore, Kim Jong-un, 26 anni, ma il regime non ha ancora emesso alcuna comunicazione ufficiale. Kim Jong Il è salito al potere dopo la morte del padre, Kim Il-sung, morto a 82 anni.

Edited by iscandar

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Interessante approfondimento della CNN riguardo alla tesi che si sta facendo strada tra gli analisti del paese Asiatico: in Nord Korea stanno aprendo all'economia di mercato, sia pure su piccola scala.

 

Se davvero sono arrivati a dover far questo per sopravvivere sarà l'inizio della fine visto che il controllo sociale applicato sino a oggi può funzionare solo con una totale collettivizzazione dell'economia.

 

 

Speculation in South Korean media that Kim Jong-Il may have cancer is the latest development in a busy month for North Korea watchers.

 

The U.S. Navy tailed a North Korean ship that was believed to have been carrying weapons bound for Myanmar. Diplomats bemoaned the state's reluctance to return to the negotiating table even as the regime in Pyongyang celebrated American Independence Day by lobbing seven short-range missiles into the Sea of Japan.

 

But a worldwide network of amateur sleuths has been watching a different trend emerge in the Stalinist state: Capitalism.

 

This grassroots group of North Korean observers has watched the growth of village markets via satellite photos courtesy of Google Earth. They compare notes and analyze photography on the Web site "North Korean Economy Watch" (www.nkeconwatch.com).

 

"There's a whole bunch of small-scale private enterprises that have sprung up," said Curtis Melvin, founder of the site and an economist at George Mason University where he's working toward his doctorate degree. "With Google Earth, you can scroll back through time from the most recent satellite photographs and see how these markets are growing.

 

"In large towns you can see multiple markets, but you can find them in every town and every city," Melvin said.

 

The growth of these markets -- long on the fringe of legality in North Korea -- has caused government leaders to begin clamping down on the practice as a threat to the regime. According to North Korea watchers, border police began clamping down on widespread smuggling last year. In December, Pyongyang stopped South Korean tours to the border city of Kaesong and reduced number of South Koreans allowed to work in the Kaesong Industry Park.

 

The relative stabilization of the North Korean economy "formed a background for a backlash against the market-oriented institutions and activities that were grudgingly tolerated for a period of time," wrote Andrei Lankov, a professor of North Korean history at Kookmin University in Seoul, in a study released this week.

 

Lankov, a native of Russia, spent a year in North Korea in the 1980s and has studied and written about the groundswell of capitalism in the country. The markets began sprouting in the wake of the famines of the 1990s as North Koreans struggled for additional food and income. The public distribution system of food and supplies collapsed as aid from the Soviet Union dried up and "grassroots capitalism was born," Lankov said in an interview.

 

Although he returns every year to North Korea on highly restricted visits, Lankov gathers most of his information on the country's markets by making frequent trips to the Chinese border and interviewing "the people who have a fairly good idea what's going on - smugglers and Christian missionaries," he said.

 

The North Korean government appears confused how to handle capitalism within its borders. The government nominally embraced the legality of markets in 2002, but in recent years has been clamping down again.

 

For example, mobile phones were legalized for sale in 2002, but by 2004 they were banned again. Late last year, the central government notified local officials that all private markets could operate only three days a month in 2009 - yet the new restriction was never adopted, Lankov said.

 

Some economists estimate North Koreans earn more than 50 percent of their income by illegal trade. It's even the subject of dark humor within the country, said Lankov, quoting a self-deprecating joke North Koreans make: "There are only two kinds of people in North Korea: those who are engaged in trade and those who are dying."

 

There is a belief that regional governors are making so much money from operations in their districts they are allowing them to grow unchallenged, Melvin said. "It's not clear where all this is going," he added.

 

In addition to the growth of markets, Curtis and his fellow North Korean watchers have congregated information under the link titled "North Korea Uncovered," which labels buildings, objects and monuments throughout the country, including Kim Jong-Il's palaces (one of which has a waterslide), suspected mass graves, prison camps and nuclear facilities.

 

Melvin began the project in 2007 after visiting North Korea in 2004 and 2005, traveling with a group of North Korean supporters from Europe. "We were subjected to North Korean propaganda which was pretty exhausting ... everywhere you go you hear about the Great Leader doing this or that; advice he gave to the makers of a dam, or advice he gave to farmers," he said. "It got a little scary toward the end (of his first trip) ... someone's room got ransacked, someone's computer was broken into."

 

He returned in 2005 to watch the massive May Day "Arirang" public demonstration in Pyongyang celebrating the 60th anniversary of the end of World War II. "Kim Jung Il showed up, there were 150,000 people in the stands and 100,000 people performing on the field. it was an absolutely surreal event I will never forget."

 

As an economist, Melvin was fascinated to see the last vestiges of Stalinist Communism. "It was like stepping into a time machine, everything was like out of the 1950s, including the music you heard and the hair styles of the stewardesses on the plane," he said. "I'd always been fascinated by totalitarianism, so it was kind of like viewing a train wreck in action."

 

His tours were severely restricted to only areas the government wanted him to observe, but with Google Earth "we can stick our face over the fence and see what's going on," Melvin said.

 

"The great thing about the Internet today is we can bring together people who have their own experiences with North Korea, who were scattered across the planet," he said. "We can check people's information against other people's information and against maps."

 

A recent revelation - Melvin had noticed small objects in rivers around the country, but couldn't make out what they were. A Web site viewer knew: "They were whole fleets of dredging machines. The guy who wrote in said he spent his whole life working on dredging machines," he said.

 

Detailing dredging machines may not seem revelatory, but North Korea's tight restriction on travel and information makes every morsel fascinating for Melvin and other amateur North Korean watchers. "If North Korean government was more open, this stuff wouldn't be interesting to anyone at all," he said.

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il brutto della vicenda è che per ribaltare il regime dovrebbe esserci una forte voglia di democrazia nel popolo ,noi paesi occidentali non possiamo neanche importare la democrazia come stiamo facendo in afganistan.

Semplicemente perchè se per esempio fanno una repubblica civilizzata in afganistan e NATO e compagnia bella tornano a casa tempo un' anno (pure troppo) e ricominciano a scannarsi.

Anche se i due casi che ho preso in esempio sono molto diversi vorrei avervi trasmesso il messaggio che altre persone hanno trasmesso a me.

La voglia di Democrazia e Libertà deve partire dal popolo. (Non intendo certo la battagla del proletario , non fraintendetemi.)

 

Tornando allo scontro ,quanti colpi di avvertimento hanno sparato i Sudcoreani? Giusto per capire meglo la vicenda, alquanto interessante

 

Speriamo in bene

,Baddy

 

P.S.se qualcuno ha altri punti di vista postateli è interessante sapere più aspetti. non credete?

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spostato nella discussione riguardante la Corea del Nord, così da non avere un doppione ;)

 

 

 

 

in ogni caso... sarà un caso che lo sconfinamento è avvenuto alla vigilia della visita di Obama? secondo me no ;)

Edited by vorthex

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Nuove tensioni fra corea del nord e corea del sud, una nave sud coreana è stata affondata.

Ma a questo punto perchè i sud coreani non invadono la corea del nord??

La cina non intervenirebbe di certo, o almeno se fosse una iniziativa solo sud coreana e non statunitense, anche perchè se attacca la corea del sud gli stati uniti intervengono e se intervengono già da subito gli stati uniti si metterebbero subito contro gli usa.

Quindi io sono certo che se la corea si riunificasse la cina non farebbe problemi, daltronde come ho detto prima se creasse problemi interverrebbero gli usa e con se la nato e non penso che la cina allora sarebbe in vantaggio.

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Ma a questo punto perchè i sud coreani non invadono la corea del nord??

beh, intanto con il passare delle ore pare sempre meno certo un coinvolgimento della Corea del Nord.

La Cheonan è affondata parecchio a sud del limite/frontiera e non ci sarebbero prove di un coinvolgimento della korea del nord (che di sicuro gongola).

 

E poi i nord coreani, o meglio il "caro leader" è talmente pazzo che potrebbe risponderebbe a viso aperto ad un attacco condannando a morte se stesso e una infinità di Coreani del nord e Sud. Non avrebbe scampo, ma farebbero in tempo a fare parecchio male (ancora), quanto meno alla K.Sud.

 

Credo che la politica USA/K.SUD sia di aspettare che tiri le cuoia e vedere come si pone il figlio. Non sembra mancare tanto.

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se i nordcoreani non comprano tedesco(a meno che non lo abbiano acquistato al mercato nero), chi ha attaccato ed affondato la nave???

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Ho fatto un pò di ricerche...se la notizia di legolas è certificata allora è da escludere i "siluri umani" (stile Maiale) ipotizzati dai sud coreani in un primo momento ed è da sposare la teoria del bubble jet (provocato da un siluro medio-pesante) esploso a poca distanza o addirittura del contatto con lo scafo stesso.

 

Questo lo schema delle unità usate per la ricerca del relitto:

cheonan.jpg

 

Questa è la parte prodiera:

_47736329_009166824-1.jpg

 

Se la si confronta con la foto dell'HMS Torrens della Marina Australiana dopo l'impatto con un mk48, si evince che lo squarcio è simile.

Riguardo la corvetta sud coreana, questa aveva un tonnellaggio di 1500 tonnellate mentre il cacciatorpediniere australiano si attestava attorno alle 3500 t.

 

Negli aritcoli in molti credono che sia stato un siluro pesante a fare tutto quel macello.

 

Un siluro di produzione tedesca ed in uso anche sugli U212 della Bundesmarine è il DM2A4 con una testata del peso di circa 250 kg (circa mezzo quintale in meno di un mk48)

Il siluro è stato selezionato, attualmente, solo dalla marina spagnola nel mercato d'esportazione. Ma con la variabile dle mercato nero è possibile di tutto.

 

N.B.

 

La Cheonan era un unità dedita al pattugliamento d'un tratto di mare vicino alla costa nordcoreana e che per 2 volte (1999, 2003) ha preso parte a deglis contri a fuoco dove la ROK è sempre risultata vincitrice.

 

Leggendo qualcosa sulla BBC si dà adito sempre maggiore ad un bubble jet.

Edited by wingrove

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Per essere solo delle corvette, quelle sud coreane avevano degli apparati d'attacco e di difesa veramente di lusso, poi è stata una nave che ha preso parte più volte a scontri a fuoco, quindi al suo comando non potevano averci messo il primo ufficiale di passaggio.

Qui sorge una domanda: come per gli aerei che dispongono di una o più scatole nere, vi è una banca dati resistente ad esplosioni, pressioni, impatti, attriti ecc... anche sulle navi?

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