Esportazioni Eurofighter Typhoon - discussione ufficiale

[paperinik]

Stando al Sol24ore la Romania "sarebbe decisa ad acquistare i nuovi caccia Eurofighter.

 

LINK

 

Se la cosa va in porto, ci sono due scenari:

- acquisto della T3A e della T3B, cessione dei T1, aeronautica con circa 100 caccia

- acquisto della T3A, rinuncia della T3B, cessione dei T1, aeronautica con circa 75 caccia

 

Mah, 75 aerei che coprano un orizzonte temporale di 30 anni (come minimo) sono decisamente pochi

 

Se la T1 verrà davvero ceduta alla Romania (dubito interamente, probabilmente verranno ceduti solo i Typhoon T1 blk 1,2,2B pur se retrofittati al blk 5 tramite il programma R2) l'unica implicazione è che la T3 verrà accettata dall'Italia senza troppe complicazioni finanziarie.

Lo spezzatino a cui è stato soggetto la T3 non è che ha cancellato le famose penali, ha semplicemente dato ossigeno alle casse dei 4 stati del Consorzio Eurofighter, che adesso avranno più tempo per trovare i fondi per pagare l'intera tranche finale.

[Rick86]

Attenzione. Noi non possiamo permetterci di vendere i biposto; su 15 che saranno a disposizione, 10 sono T1, 3 sono T2 e solo 2 saranno T3. E' evidente che, siccome di un gruppo OCU abbiamo necessità, massimo massimo uno o due aerei andranno in Romania, forse addirittura nessuno (come poi hanno fatto i tedeschi con gli austriaci).

E' sicuro invece che i loro piloti verranno ad addestrarsi in Italia, pagandoci profumatamente.

 

E' invece probabile la cessione di tutti e 17 i monoposto della T1 (grosso modo questa mi pare essere l'esigenza romena).

 

Mah, 75 aerei che coprano un orizzonte temporale di 30 anni (come minimo) sono decisamente pochi

 

Concordo, il problema sta in Giulio

Modificato 14 Aprile 2009 da Rick86

[IamMarco]

c'è una cosa che non ho capito del meccanismo delle quote di aerei dei quattro paesi:

 

se paradossalmente una delle nazioni dovesse avere la necessità di comprare altri aerei, salterebbero tutte le quote dei ritorni industriali??

 

per quanto riguarda la romania, loro devono sostituire con urgenza 48 mig 21.

non credo che verranno rimpiazzati con un rapporto di 1 a 1.

immaginando una trentina di apparecchi dovranno ricevere un mix di aerei usati e altri nuovi o sbaglio?

 

tralaltro bisogna vedere che l'anno di consegna dei nostri T1 sia compatibile con quello della consegna di un numero decente di aerei T2 altrimenti credo ci ritroveremmo eccessivamente scoperti (tenendo anche conto che è stato rinnovato il leasing di solo parte degli F-16)

[Tuccio14]

Finalmente un bel "rumor" che cominci a dare rilievo alla tanto vociferata ipotesi. Come già detto, è tutto ossigeno per le casse dello Stato (anzi, del MdD).

[diavolo rosso]

Ma i Romeni non avevano già rifiutato una volta?

[albys]

probabilmente avremo offerto compesazioni industriali irrinunciabili

[S939]

A proposito di Grecia; so che ha ordinato un bel numero di f 16 block 50 + è vero?

[F/A Fede]

A proposito di Grecia; so che ha ordinato un bel numero di f 16 block 50 + è vero?

Mi pare che ti stia sbagliando.

La grecia deve valutare l'offerta del consorzio Eurofighter e Dassault.

[paperinik]

A proposito di Grecia; so che ha ordinato un bel numero di f 16 block 50 + è vero?

 

Esatto, il primo esemplare è stato consegnato poche settimane fa...ciò nonostante sono sempre più diffuse le voci secondo le quli la Grecia a breve riemetterà un bando per un caccia avanzato che sostituisca l'intera flotta di F-4 e A-7.

[Ospite iscandar]

A proposito di Grecia; so che ha ordinato un bel numero di f 16 block 50 + è vero?

 

 

Mi pare che ti stia sbagliando.

La grecia deve valutare l'offerta del consorzio Eurofighter e Dassault.

 

 

Esatto, il primo esemplare è stato consegnato poche settimane fa...ciò nonostante sono sempre più diffuse le voci secondo le quli la Grecia a breve riemetterà un bando per un caccia avanzato che sostituisca l'intera flotta di F-4 e A-7.

 

 

Boeing propone il Super Hornet per il programma caccia di nuova generazione della Grecia

Boeing ha annunciato che proporrà il suo F/A-18E/F Super Hornet come caccia di nuova generazione per l'aeronautica militare ellenica.

 

Il Super Hornet, che unisce eccellenti performance e tecnologia avanzata, è il caccia multiruolo più avanzato in produzione oggi, con prestazioni comprovate in oltre 500.000 ore di volo. L'F/A-18E/F viene utilizzato dalla marina degli Stati Uniti ed è attualmente in fase di costruzione per la Royal Australian Air Force.

 

Il Super Hornet è il primo aereo caccia ad incorporare capacità di nuova

generazione, come il radar Raytheon APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) integrato con sistemi avanzati per la guerra elettronica.

Modificato 16 Aprile 2009 da iscandar

[Rick86]

Japanese F-22 Campaign Lives On

 

Jun 3, 2009

David A. Fulghum (davef@aviationweek.com)

 

Japanese defense officials have not given up on buying the F-22, as both Japanese and U.S. operational specialists note that the advanced fighter and cruise missile threats from China are growing.

 

Moreover, they expect future diplomatic conflict perhaps armed clashes over unpopulated islands west of Japan to increase as various countries in the region argue about conflicting claims to oil and gas development.

 

The long distances involved and the lack of runways to the west and south of Japan create a unique operational need that the Japanese Air Self Defense Force can only partially fulfill. It has modern KC-767 tankers and E-767 AWACS to patrol its islands, but not the fighter aircraft with the speed, altitude, stealth, precision attack and small-target radars that would allow them to move quickly across the great ocean expanses between Japan and China. The small target capability would allow for a cruise missile defense and precision target would allow a defense if its islands were occupied by foreign forces. Japanese officials say that they are constitutionally prevented from increasing force structure, therefore they must have higher performance aircraft.

 

Japan's F-X program is aimed at buying 20-60 high performance F-22-like aircraft. The follow-on F-XX effort is being written to an F-35-like requirement for many more aircraft. Both programs will replace existing aircraft.

 

The problem continues to be a U.S. congressional ban against selling the F-22 to foreign countries favored by the House Appropriations Committee's chairman, Rep. David Obey (D-Wis.). But rumors persist - despite denials from Lockheed Martin that it will do any more lobbying for sales to the U.S. Air Force or foreign nations - that some congressional committees will push legislative language ordering USAF officials to look at the cost and production issues associated with building an exportable version of the F-22.

 

U.S. aerospace industry officials say this kind of uncertainty on foreign sales and the undefined schedule for a shutdown of the F-22 production line has created massive confusion over what all these various options would cost.

 

"Options have been bandied about for years," said an industry official with insight into the program. The ban on sales "can be changed by Congress. But right now nobody knows if the multiyear contract for 60 more F-22s is in effect, if there's only going to be a purchase of four more aircraft since the GWOT supplemental is not firm. And Lockheed Martin doesn't know if it's going to be a hot or a warm shutdown."

 

A senior U.S. Air Force official says a closed session last week with the Air Force chief of staff, Gen. Norman Schwartz, was extremely negative.

 

"There is no plan to go beyond 187 F-22s," he says. "The Air Force will not oppose Gates and it remains under a gag-order even with regard to Congress."

 

Defense Secretary Robert Gates has testified last month that the so-called gag order instituted during budget-making earlier this year was fully lifted when President Barack Obama unveiled his Fiscal 2010 request, and that military officers are free to offer Congress their opinions.

 

The senior USAF source told Aviation Week that F-22 shutdown would cost $400 million at least, probably more. Congress could keep it going on a year by year basis, but except for the Georgian delegation, there is no political advantage to supporting further production. "I don't think additional F-22 production will pass through Congress and survive conference in a final bill," the official said.

 

A recent Rand study said that depending on the shutdown option, costs could range from $250 million to $550 million. Those studying the issue say that the 2009 defense authorization act, section 815, says the Pentagon cannot conduct a cold shutdown and "break tooling." Doing so also could trigger something akin to the litigation that continues over then-Defense Secretary Dick Cheney's shutdown of the Navy's A-12 stealth fighter program. An appellate decision this week in that case in favor of the government touched off another round of court fighting, with Boeing and General Dynamics committing to further appealing the 18-year-old dispute.

 

For the F-22, Lockheed and the Pentagon have not yet started negotiating how to shut down the line.

 

"Finally, there's no move afoot to sell F-22s to Japan," the USAF official says. "Gates and the Defense Department are pushing F-35. But there are 12 F-22s from Langley AFB [Va.] in Okinawa [Japan] right now working with the JASDF. If the Japanese want F-22, they're going to have to make the argument themselves."

 

A questo punto abbiamo un po di chiarezza sulle intenzioni giapponesi. Logicamente, secondo me, cercano un caccia da superiorità aerea da comprare in una sesantina di esemplari e un cacciabombardiere da affiancare in grandi numeri. Negli anni '90 l'accoppiata naturale era F-15 / F-16, oggi sarebbe F-22 / F-35 ma il Raptor non è esportabile.

 

Quindi a fianco degli F-35 (che i giapponesi acquisteranno ma non subito) cosa verrà? Se l'esporteranno l'F-22, ovviamente. Ma in caso contrario i jap hanno due strade:

- un aereo autoctono

- il Typhoon

 

Altro sul mercato non c'è. Secondo voi che faranno e cosa gli converrebbe fare?

[-{-Legolas-}-]

Va bene l'idea di agganciarsi al discorso Typhoon, ma per l'F-22 continuate qui, grazie.

[paperinik]

Rick86....il Silent Eagle (progettato praticamente per loro).

[Rick86]

Mmh, al massimo come gap filler, e non sono così sicuro che loro vogliano un gap filler. Posso capire un'aviazione minore, ma il Giappone non ha di certo intenzione di avere in servizio l'F-15 fino al 2040.

Sopratutto il discorso è un altro: gap filler per cosa? L'unica alternativa è un progetto locale (e se comprano l'SE così andrà a finire). Typhoon a parte altro non c'è con il Raptor non esportabile.

[Rick86]

Lo posto qua, anche se riguarda più discussioni riprende quello di cui stavamo parlando.

 

La fonte è Defense industry daily

 

Bell'articolo che fa in maniera oggettiva il punto sulle possibili scelte del Giappone.

 

Dal tenore dell'articolo la scelta migliore sarebbe l'F-22 EX, a seguire il Typhoon e peggior scelta l'F-35 (il perchè è spiegato chiaro e tondo nella parte finale dell'articolo)

 

 

 

 

 

F-22 Raptors to Japan?

 

ack in February 2006, InsideDefense.com’s Inside The Air Force (ITAF) reported that momentum was building within the Air Force to sell the ultra-advanced F-22A Raptor abroad to trusted U.S. allies, as a way of plussing up numbers and production. The USAF originally initially intended to purchase 700-800 F-22 fighters, but that was cut to 442, then 381, and recently cut again to just over 180. These cuts have had obvious effects on the cost per aircraft, and on the ratio of aircraft to total R&D + production money spent. With F-22 production set to terminate around 2010, and increasing concern over the capability gap between other US fighters and global competitors like the SU-30 family, MiG-35, et. al., some USAF planners are becoming concerned. Extending the F-22 production line through exports is also a way of extending the USA’s decision options.

 

One of the most likely export prospects is Japan. The Raptor has been discussed at a 2007 summit meeting, and in a number of other venues. Meanwhile, BAE Systems is looking to pounce with its Eurofighter if the US remains intransigent, and Boeing has offered an interesting F-15SE option of its own. A recent Reuters report indicates that Japan is beginning to pick up F-22EX supporters, however, including a prominent US Senator…

 

The Japan Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF) currently has 3 fighter jet models in its fleet: F-15J/F-15DJ Eagles, its F-4EJ “Kai” and RF-4EJ reconnaissance Phantom IIs, the Mitsubishi F-2s (a larger, longer-range variant on the F-16C). The Mitsubishi F-1 entered service in 1978 and is still listed on the JASDF web site, but it has now been replaced by F-2s1. The JASDF introduced the F-4EJ in 1973, and the RF-4EJ version is slated for replacement by F-15Js with special pods. Japan has indicated it will begin retiring the F-4 platform entirely early next decade, which gives the Japanese a number of choices to make – and the F-22 is currently at the top of their list.

 

Japan already produces F-15Js under license, and designed and produced the Mitsubishi F-2 in conjunction with Lockheed Martin. The F-2 is larger than an F-16 and has more range, but its performance does not compare to an F-15 and it costs nearly as much. The F-2s will not be built in expected numbers, which means they cannot replace the F-4EJs and RF-4EJs.

 

Given this impasse, the Japanese have several options.

 

Upgraded F-15Js. Japan may choose to go ahead and buy “kaizen” F-15Js at a comparable cost, possibly with the AESA APG-63v3 radar. Additional capability boosts would come from attached pods like ReeceLight or SHARP for reconnaissance, or combination recon/targeting pods like LITENING AT or Lockheed’s Sniper ATP.

 

The concern in Japan is that this option could leaves them at an air-air disadvantage against current SU-30MKK aircraft, let alone future upgrades like the SU-30MKI/MKK. Boeing’s new F-15SE “Silent Eagle” appears to aimed directly at these concerns. It adds a number of important advances that will help it hold its own with currently-fielded fighters, and is optimized for the kinds of long-range, over-water combat patrols the JASDF requires. Its strike capability is sufficiently secondary that it need not raise alarm bells, while remaining useful in an emergency.

 

Alternatively, Japan could move for a broader capability upgrade and buy a 4th or 5th generation fighter.

 

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter would be attractive for budgetary reasons. It offers exceptional performance in the reconnaissance role, while its set partnership model smooths technology transfer issues. Unfortunately, its single-engine design would be a concern during maritime combat air patrols, and its declared status as a strike fighter works against it in a country that’s so insistent on the purely defensive functions of its weaponry.

 

The F-35B’s STOVL (Short Take Off, Vertical Landing) capabilities might make it a politically salable option as a defensive aircraft that could operate from dispersed locations, rather than easily-targeted bases. Of course, Japan is also purchasing a helicopter carrier for roles like disaster response….

 

Buy European. The Eurofighter Typhoon or Dassault Rafale would be possibilities, and coupling them with the MBDA Meteor long-range air-air missile might be very attractive given Japan’s needs; the Eurofighter in particular is a very capable twin-engine air superiority aircraft, and Tranche 1 versions have very limited ground-attack capabilities that would satisfy “defensive-only” criteria.

 

Japan’s long over-water patrol needs push it strongly toward twin-engine aircraft, due to the reduced odds of engine issues causing the complete loss of the aircraft. If Japan decided that its next generation F-4 replacement should resemble the F-2 rather than the F-15, however, the next-generation JAS-39 Gripen Demo would also become a potential competitor.

 

A European buy of this nature may become appealing if American options leave Japan with defense capability gaps. It would mean deviating from Japan’s strongly American industrial links and equipment infrastructure, however – no small move in a society that sets such store by deep industrial relationships.

 

F-22J-EX. On the other hand, Japan’s combination of long sea zones and growing rivalry with China make a long-range, twin-engine, supercruising and stealthy interceptor that has unprecedented reconnaissance capabilities and leverages existing Japanese partnerships with Lockheed and Boeing nearly irresistible. Seen in that light, the JASDF’s interest in the F-22 is less surprising.

 

In February 2006, a Lockheed Martin official confirmed that a proposal to sell Japan F-22s in some form of downgraded “international variant” was working its way through the Air Force with the support of the Japanese government. At the time, it was “at the three- or four-star level” and among civilian decision-makers. The request has been pursued ever since at the highest levels.

 

An F-22EX buy would keep the production line running until the USAF can build more support for additional F-22s. The range requirements of the Pacific theater in particular, and the F-35’s likely inability to handle modern aircraft like the SU-30 family, MiG-35, and European aircraft on even terms, have some in the USAF extremely concerned. If upgrades and proliferation lead to fighter overmatch against US aircraft within the next decade, an active F-22 production line has considerable strategic and financial value.

 

On the negative side, the F-22’s extensive and not fully-revealed capabilities have made many in the USA very nervous about exporting it, and thereby risking a security breach around its electronic architecture, stealth aspects, or next-generation data links. Licensed Japanese production, a standard requirement for other Japanese fighter deals, would be unlikely – or extremely limited if allowed. The aircraft’s $137 million flyaway cost also makes all but the most serious buyers hesitate.

Modificato 9 Giugno 2009 da Rick86

[paperinik]

Rick, guarda che quello che hai postato è esattamente la premessa alla news che abbiamo commentato nella discussione del Raptor...o no?!

Modificato 9 Giugno 2009 da paperinik